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Re: Let's codify the discussion
Posted by 'Liam' on 18 Aug 2010 @ 16:20


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Liam
Joined: March 2010
Total Posts: 1
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You're right, I didn't answer the last question. But it's not worth going into the detail that you have, as it really would be conjecture. Tyre science is probably the least well researched area of motor sports engineering, and the only models and explanations that work seem to be empirical or semi-empirical.

Instantaneous retardation is easy enough to measure at well above the frequencies we've talked about, as is instantaneous wheel speed. I've seen people testing karts with equipment that can measure all this pretty accurately, (you only need GPS and axle speed, but longitudinal acceleration would also be a nice one) so why bother with conjecture about what the contact patch might be doing when we can simply measure the effects.

As davidmc has mentioned more than once, there is plenty of real data showing where you get the most grip out of a tyre, and although I've never made any measurements on karts, I have done so with sufficient other vehicles that I am extremely dubious about high frequency lock-up and return to road speed being possible, let alone effective in slowing a vehicle.

Finally, your explanations are entirely plausible, I fully believe that a lock up for 1/100th could be as good as a tyre rolling at some fraction of road speed, but it isn't what happens in my experience of making measurements. In any data I've looked at all but the doziest of drivers are off the brake well before the wheels lock. My contention is that karts are not as dissimilar to racing cars as you might think.

Message Thread:

itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 15:03)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 15:57)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 16:43)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 17:00)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 17:05)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 22:08)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 16:50)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 17:35)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 18:17)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 18:47)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 19:12)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 19:30)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 20:41)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Traxtar'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 19:23)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 20:13)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Traxtar'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 20:42)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 21:05)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 21:55)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'BanzaiBoy'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 22:06)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 22:23)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Traxtar'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 23:17)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (17 Aug 2010 @ 23:33)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 0:11)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 0:26)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 0:30)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Traxtar'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 0:30)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 9:09)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobF1'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 9:58)
Errrrrr...... Rob........  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 11:45)
Re: Errrrrr...... Rob........  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 16:30)
But........ David.....that's daft!  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 11:30)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobWallace'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 13:44)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:41)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobWallace'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 17:21)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobWallace'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 17:25)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 19:47)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobWallace'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 20:35)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'davidmc'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 20:46)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'RobWallace'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 13:35)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 13:56)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:46)
Re: itpro and Liam's braking performance debate  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 0:23)
Let's codify the discussion  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 12:16)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'davidmc'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:12)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:32)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'davidmc'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 19:08)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'itpro'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 17:00)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'davidmc'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 18:01)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'itpro'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 18:15)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'davidmc'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 19:42)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'davidmc'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 19:50)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:14)
Cheers Liam  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 14:54)
A Video  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 15:19)
Re: A Video...... oops  by 'itpro'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 15:21)
Re: Wrong Video...... oops (nt)  by 'RotaxTim'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 15:55)
Oh DAMN..... here's the right one.... I hope  by 'itpro'   (20 Aug 2010 @ 16:48)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'Liam'  << You are here!
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'Traxtar'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 16:37)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'AlfieMoon'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 17:28)
Re: Let's codify the discussion  by 'Liam'   (18 Aug 2010 @ 20:00)

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